*tempted to pull a Fujin*

Talk about all aspects of the gameplay of Final Fantasy 3us/6j.

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Postby Assassin » Fri Oct 08, 2004 2:38 pm

I want to put in quite a few Rages for every boss, as I don't want its success to depend on equipment. Heck, Paladin Shield, Ribbon and Safety Bit...where's the strategy? Who needs Red Wolf now? But I want to do this regardless of equipment, even though I often say that a Snow Muffler or a Fire Shield might be very nice indeed to fill in remaining holes of the defensive part.


How do you do it regardless of equipment? Pretend they're naked? The best defensive rages aren't usually the best offensive ones.. So if you assume players don't have a relic or shield they could have obtained with ease by a certain point in the game, you're gonna be prolonging battles just to cover your ass with an underpowered rage.

I agree that you can't expect a Pally Shield or Safety Bit to be available for Gau, given one is finite, and the other is a bitch to accumulate without the Ragnarok Esper. (Not to mention Rages will *overwrite* instant death protection, or lack thereof, so Safety Bit is worthless).

However, there is plenty of gear you *should* expect. For instance, you said "if you have" and "Wall Ring" in the same sentence. For the WoR. NO!! Maybe that's just an example you rattled off, but I will seize on it to say that anybody who doesn't have Wall Rings out the wazoo by then deserves to be beaten with a bag of doorknobs. :P

I also don't think it's much to expect that you've nabbed at least 4 Ribbons or at least a couple Snow Mufflers after you've roamed the WoR a bit. Nor are Flame Shields a tall order once you have the airship.

Neglecting anything available in shops (like Amulet on the Imperial Continent) is patently inexcusable, in my opinion.

The outlook I'd been following in my FAQ was "Get equipment ASAP, but always outfit Gau last because he's that superior." :)

Now there may be some battles where a certain Rage is a magical fit, and you can waltz into them in your birthday suit and own the boss. But more often, you'll find the Rage that's (unnecessarily) accounting for lack of equipment doesn't hurt the enemy too much.

To guide the player, you can periodically say "Before visiting dungeon X, I expect you to go get this item." Or you can assume an NEG, and just paste wall-to-wall Magic Urn in your file. Or you can have a dozen IF statements for each boss, with three quarters of those covering scenarios that only the brain damaged will encounter.

Entering a battle with intelligently chosen equipment relics and equipment is part of strategy, not contrary to it.

You keep saying "normal battle", but assuming the worst possible gear is blatantly *abnormal*. What are the minimums, if any, that you had in mind?
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Postby Assassin » Fri Oct 08, 2004 2:47 pm

note that i find the Rage suggestions you've made so far plenty reasonable, so our differences are mostly theoretical. :)

and since you're not bothering with all those wretched random encounters, you may have patience to spare for countless crazy boss setups.

but writing for subpar/nonexistent equipment strikes me as contradictory to the "normal", restrictionless playthrough style you've been mentioning. maybe "restrictionless" means dimwits are free to buy nothing, but accounting for that is just a license for tedium.
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Postby Djibriel » Sat Oct 09, 2004 1:19 pm

An Ing Rage will actually remove the positive effects of my Safety Bit? That sucks :(

But you are right. I gave it some thought. You can hardly miss at least *one* Ribbon, Wall Rings and Cherub Downs are available at shops and because Falchion --> Flame Shld --> Ice Shld it's only a matter of time and money and not being mind-numbingly stupid at the Colloseum to assume possession of those. Snow Muffler and Merit Award are two items I want to consider items you don't necessarily have, although both are *exceedingly* useful and should be put on Gau ASAP in my opinion.
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Postby Assassin » Sun Oct 10, 2004 1:30 am

cool.. it might be worth mentioning somewhere to let the Narshe mines treasure chest transform to Ribbon, because that makes it less likely you'll have to pull that relic off another party member to give it to Gau. (though it can be stolen from Brach anyway in anything but a LLG..)

agreed on Merit Award.

Snow Muffler i'm inclined to assume is equipped pretty early in the WoR. SrBehemoth is one of the easier critters to find on the Veldt, and the incentive to get this armor is so high that Outsider doesn't seem too fearsome (with an instant death weapon and the time-tested Save+Reset Colosseum strategy).
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Postby Djibriel » Sun Oct 10, 2004 6:47 pm

Okays, here's the content as I have it right now:

1.0 Version History and Introduction
1.1 What will Rage do to Gau and Gogo?
1.2 How do I get new Rages, and how does the Veldt work?
1.3 Misplaced in the data space...Rages which fit and Rages which don't
1.4 What was changed in Anthology concerning Rages?
1.5 Legendary Tactics...cheaper than a Brasilian prostitute ;)
1.6 Not just Gau...Gogo the Rager
1.7 Boss strategies
1.8 The Merit Award....or to boldly go where no game designer wanted you to go
1.9 Bugs concerning Rage, Leap and the Veldt
1.10 Good Rages in random encounter battles. In other words: the elusive answer to the question "What are the best Rages?"
1.11 Rage and Relics...True love or an abusive marriage?
1.12 Items Gau, you and I love...but where to get them?
1.13 Conclusion and Credits
1.14 Disclaimer

Any suggestions? The only thing I can currently think of which isn't directly listed here is Gau with the Imp Halbard, but I'm going to list that under the Rage and Relics chapter as he'll need either a Gauntlet or a Genji Glove to get any pleasure out of that.
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Postby Mnrogar » Sun Oct 10, 2004 7:21 pm

Oh god, jokes in faqs, we have another assassin in the making...

Why are they all section 1 if that's all there is? The .1 and .2 stuff might seem all cool and stuff to you kids but it's not nearly as cool when it's not needed. :wink:

Anyway, seems plenty comprehensive. Curious to see what they changed in anthology for rages because nothing comes to mind right now.
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Postby Djibriel » Sun Oct 10, 2004 7:35 pm

Oh, it's just Merit Award related. No Merit Award on Gau = one sad Djibriel :cry: Not that I would ever buy Anthology (and that's assuming a PS would fall out of the sky, together with a bundle of money to pay for everything I want *and* an Anthology disc). It makes me sad because I have to take it into consideration. Can't rely on a crazy Black Belt/Ice Rod/Cursed Shield/Snow Muffler combo (impractical yet cool as that might have been).

And those section numbers....good question. I kind of wrote it down without thinking it over, but it doesn't make sense. Maybe I'll create a 2.0 section all the way at the bottom saying "I said all there was to it, now get back to your little Christine Aguilera shrine you kaashoofdig en tenenkrommend stuk vaginale afscheiding.

Nah.
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Postby Mnrogar » Sun Oct 10, 2004 7:39 pm

kaashoofdig en tenenkrommend stuk vaginale afscheiding

Hell, even google can't help me there.
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Postby Djibriel » Sun Oct 10, 2004 7:53 pm

Be glad, nobody in their right mind would want to live in a world where Google gets you hits for THAT.
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Postby Assassin » Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:05 am

time for more bosses..

UMARO -

He gets meaner if you have just 2 party members alive, so try to keep all 3 in good shape. Also, he will jump every 3 times he's hit by the Magic command, so pat yourself on the back for using Rage. :D

Brontaur. Ideal if you have Snow Muffler or Ice Shield, because it casts a searing Fire 3 and is immune to Umaro's Instant Death style attacks (Lode Stone and Snowball). Bad w/o proper equipment, as it's weak against Ice.

Sky Cap. Megazerk takes the creativity -- and chill -- out of Umaro's attack pattern. Heck, he'll be even dumber than when he joins your party. :)

If you don't have Snow Muffler/Ice Shield yet:

Purple Mag Roader. Absorbs Ice. ID protection. The Bio attack not only gets Umaro elementally, but it'll poison him.

Toe Cutter. Absorbs Ice. ID protection. Slightly more damage upfront than Mag Roader, but lacks the status infliction. On the downside, Umaro will constantly whine at your party over the shrapnel he still has lodged in his leg.

Scrapper. Decent Elf Fire attack (slightly more damage than Shrapnel), ID protection. No absorb Ice, though.

If 5 is too many, I'd leave Sky Cap, Mag Roader, and Toe Cutter as the "ideal" trio.
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Postby Assassin » Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:36 am

Master Pug -

Wall Rings all around. Running or Marvel Shoes are recommended for the Rager(s). On other party members besides Gau/Gogo, you might want Safety Bits/Memento Rings to dodge W. Wind, and something to absorb Water (a single piece of Imp equipment will do.)

Mad Oscar is tailor made for this battle.

It absorbs Water, and Sour Mouth poisons Master Pug (so you don't have to hit him for damage and get slaughtered by Step Mine) and puts him to sleep.

Cross your fingers that you get in that lore before he WallChanges, because 0-damage poisoning is a recipe for snoozing.

As soon as Sour Mouth hits, off to the races! Don't let go of L+R until that frustratingly neutral tapir awakens Master Pug. Chances are he woke up on the wrong side of the bed, so cease running immediately after that and hope for another Sour Mouth.

Having Gau and Gogo together here is highly recommended. Not only will you have a better chance of sneaking in Sour Mouth -- upon both battle start and slumber emergences -- but one Rager will pick up the slack should another fall from Step Mine (though it's recommended you revive them anyway).

If you raised an eyebrow at Rage and Run here: keep in mind that we're not waiting for him to run out of MP or anything tedious, and I challenge you to come up with something better. ;P

This is one battle where it's very tempting just to advise that you cast a Sleep spell and follow up with rapid-fire Magic. But I daresay we've got an adequate substitute. 8-)
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Postby Djibriel » Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:04 pm

When I thought about Umaro, I thought Insecare. It's the same as Sky Cap concerning all remotely important features, and where you need to have taken an optional detour for Sky Cap, Insecare is WoB material.

Brontaur is definately the best choice as the Ice Shield is indirectly store-bought (Falchion >Flame Shld > Ice Shld) anyway.

Cross your fingers that you get in that lore before he WallChanges, because 0-damage poisoning is a recipe for snoozing.


Honestly? He wakes up from 0-damage poisoning? That's odd.

I don't like Master Pug, he is mean to the Rage FAQ. Next to Mad Oscar, I would like to propose Wart Puck. With 1200 MP he's a quick meal for Rasp. It won't directly kill him, but it'll make him useless for the rest of the battle.

See? I found another way to evade Rage & Run. :wink:
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Postby Assassin » Wed Oct 13, 2004 2:22 pm

When I thought about Umaro, I thought Insecare. It's the same as Sky Cap concerning all remotely important features, and where you need to have taken an optional detour for Sky Cap, Insecare is WoB material.


ah, true. i'd include both names if just for the fact that people may not have bothered to find Insecare on the Veldt, but i definitely agree it's preferable here.

Brontaur is definately the best choice as the Ice Shield is indirectly store-bought (Falchion >Flame Shld > Ice Shld) anyway.


true. i still think the other three are worth honorable mention, especially because they're very respectable on offense.

i realize that's slightly contradicting my whole "anybody who doesn't have this equipment should be shot!" declaration, but i can see the pride of using an equipment-independent Rage when it doesn't lead to a drawn out battle. :)

Cross your fingers that you get in that lore before he WallChanges, because 0-damage poisoning is a recipe for snoozing.


Honestly? He wakes up from 0-damage poisoning? That's odd.


naw, i meant the stalemate would put the player to sleep. my bad on mentioning "snoozing" in a battle where Sleep status is involved. :/ but how'd you read it as *waking* him anyway? :P

good call on Wart Puck. Tyranosaur and Retainer will also perform well. Master Pug has 18.3x as much HP as MP. when you factor in his uber Magic Defense, Meteo does roughly 48C damage (it misses 20% of the time) compared to Rasp's 3.7C (where C is some constant) and Shock's 47.5C.

obviously, the two attacks i suggest don't quite bridge the 18x damage gap, as they're closer to 13x. so you'll get smacked by more magic, but less Cleavers.
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Postby Djibriel » Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:07 am

but how'd you read it as *waking* him anyway?


I kinda read it as 'recipe against snoozing'. I still meet expressions I've never heard of fairly often, so I kinda have to guess/go with intuition as far as the meaning goes. I see I overdid it this time :?

Anyway, I had another look at Master Pug. Should you have more HP than Step Mine does (and if not: you suck), you could go full-out offensive with a Drainer, a Wall Ring and the Hornet Rage. You'll suck back any HP loss from Step Mine with every attack, be protected from Fire3/Ice3/Bolt3/Bio/Pearl, have Float for Quake and, should you have one, a TortoiseShld for CleanSweep. That leaves us with only W Wind to worry about, and the odds are small. Even then, the Drainer should protected Gau's HP from remaining critical for long.

You could nix the TortoiseShld for a Genji one and swap the CleanSweep protection for a Cleaver protection.
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Postby Assassin » Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:36 am

but will Drainer bring you to full HP every time, or will a few Step Mines in a row wear you down?

Phase would be protected against W.Wind, but he'd only drain half the time.

Pm Stalker uses the Drain spell half the time, whose magical damage may be better at lower levels. unfortunately, it has Seizure to contend with, though that isn't too bad with constant healing.

Mandrake with Gaia Gear is another good one. lack of Snow Muffler won't hurt too much since you're Reflecting most of Puggie's attacks.
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Postby Djibriel » Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:44 am

but will Drainer bring you to full HP every time, or will a few Step Mines in a row wear you down?

But that's the good part! Master Pug will never use 'a few Step Mines' in a row. Only as a counter he will use this bizarre move which could only have been invented by a Square employee. Even in a Gau SCC, he won't hit Gau with it unless Gau hits him. So all you have to worry about is:

Does Gau's Battle damage > Step Mine damage?

It depends, but Step Mine will do...what, 2000 damage at that point? Gau will be swinging a 210 Battle Power Drainer. Heck, we still have a Relic slot to spare, so we could go with two Drainers, or a Gauntlet, or a Hero Ring.
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Postby Djibriel » Thu Oct 14, 2004 9:14 am

Oh, small question in the meantime for somebody who either knows or can test it: Hawk Eye/Sniper stores the Throw command for graphic purposes only, or that's what I understood. Giving Gau these weapons will make him use other weapons in battle (Trident on Chimera, etc.). Will the 50 % 'throw' attack display no specific graphic result, the normal Hawk Eye/Sniper throw graphic or the throw graphic of the weapon supposedly used by Gau?

And if the last, what happens when you select something like Stray Cat (Fists) or Vector Pup (Dragon Claw)?
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Postby Assassin » Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:18 am

iirc, it visually "throws" whatever the monster weapon is.

don't recall on Fists.. but i vaguely remember that weapons which can't normally be thrown still give a throw graphic in this scenario -- perhaps of some other weapon.

since you summoned FF5 in vain on g'faqs, you must now answer an FF5 question. ;) if the initial attack misses (e.g. due to high enemy evade), will Capture still try to steal afterwards? Imzogelmo isn't nuts about FF6's behavior (steal is skipped), but i lack the breadth of knowledge to say how bad that is.
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Postby Djibriel » Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:24 am

Yes, the physical strike can miss and the Steal attempt successful. It's different from FF VI, especially because that game actually has quite a few battles where missing with a weapon is rule rather than exception :)
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Postby Djibriel » Sat Oct 16, 2004 5:46 am

I did a test run, and the visual weapon is indeed thrown, IOW The Chimera Trident, not whatever Gau is equipped with. Where there isn't an appropriate weapon to throw (Fists, Dragon Claw, any Special), the small Dirk throw graphic will appear, as I kinda assumed it would.

Maybe worthy of a small mention in the Bugs and Glitches Guide? It's nothing devastating but showing a Dirk graphic where there should be....NOT a Dirk graphic doesn't seem right.

More hot Boss strategy action monday, count on it. I'm making some good progress, but I have yet to tackle the largest sections (and the one which I'm afraid I don't know everything about yet, which is what properties are passed and what not, I'll have to play-test this).
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