Glitches and Bugs guide updating thread

Talk about all aspects of the gameplay of Final Fantasy 3us/6j.

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Postby Master ZED » Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:56 pm

Here's a new one (needs testing):

FC 05 only strikes the last person to do damage, not the last attacker -

FC 05 is first triggered when HP or MP damage is done to the target, then anytime it is struck by anything from anyone after that unless other counters take precedence. However, FC 05 only retargets who to counterattack if damage is done. For example, use Reflect status during a fight with 3 L.30 Magics to bounce their spells back at them. Look for someone's spell to strike one of the other monsters instead of the original caster. That one will counterattack the caster. Target the victim of the Reflected spell with Dispel or something else non-damaging, and it will use its FC 05 counter on the monster that struck it via Reflect again, even though it didn't do anything.

Only tested with L.30 Magic's so far (FFA and FF3us v1.0). Anyone wanna try another enemy while I continue playing FFA?
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Postby Assassin » Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:33 pm

Master ZED wrote:Here's a new one (needs testing):


i thought you mentioned this to me awhile back..? at any rate, i've seen the behavior (don't remember which monsters; they may've been hacked). iirc, we discussed it with Apparites or something like that.


FC 05 only strikes the last person to do damage, not the last attacker -


nitpick: person => entity before you finalize that.


FC 05 is first triggered when HP or MP damage is done to the target, then anytime it is struck by anything from anyone after that unless other counters take precedence. However, FC 05 only retargets who to counterattack if damage is done. For example, use Reflect status during a fight with 3 L.30 Magics to bounce their spells back at them. Look for someone's spell to strike one of the other monsters instead of the original caster. That one will counterattack the caster. Target the victim of the Reflected spell with Dispel or something else non-damaging, and it will use its FC 05 counter on the monster that struck it via Reflect again, even though it didn't do anything.


since we're acknowledging FC 05 is screwy, what about this:

- Character A hits enemy with Cure, no counter.
- Character A hits enemy with Fire, counter.
- Character A hits enemy with Cure; now there's a counter.

It's not quite as illogical as punishing the wrong person, but it's damn close. In my mind, "Counter if you've been hurt at all" is about as odd as "Counter the last entity to hurt you". Meanwhile, "Counter the attacker if this attack hurts you" is so intuitive, so soothingly SANE. :D

how do other games handle it?


a related question: if you hurt Madam, why will she then counter her own reflected spells?? i thought most counterattacks excluded self-damage, so this threw me for a loop.


Only tested with L.30 Magic's so far (FFA and FF3us v1.0). Anyone wanna try another enemy while I continue playing FFA?


i'll try a couple later tonight.
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Postby RuneLancer » Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:01 pm

Assassin wrote:A related question: if you hurt Madam, why will she then counter her own reflected spells?? i thought most counterattacks excluded self-damage, so this threw me for a loop.


A related note. Could a (theoretical) enemy end up attacking itself when charmed, then counter its own attacks? Possibly ad-infinitum, even?

The thought of a monster whacking itself off into oblivion in a mad rage is quite an entertaining one. Seemed a little unlikely at first but now that I think of it, unless counter damage doesn't count, auto-counters against itself might lead to this behavior...

Unless I'm missing something about the behavior of charmed enemies... Though come to think of it, even if it does attack itself (I've seen characters do that, so I don't see why enemies wouldn't) it would revert to- well, after the first blow charmed status wouldn't matter anymore. Hrm.
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Postby Master ZED » Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:38 am

Assassin wrote:
Master ZED wrote:Here's a new one (needs testing):


i thought you mentioned this to me awhile back..? at any rate, i've seen the behavior (don't remember which monsters; they may've been hacked). iirc, we discussed it with Apparites or something like that.

You must've brought it up, this is brand new to me. Yes, you're gonna have to prove my senality again.

Assassin wrote:since we're acknowledging FC 05 is screwy, what about this:

- Character A hits enemy with Cure, no counter.
- Character A hits enemy with Fire, counter.
- Character A hits enemy with Cure; now there's a counter.

It's not quite as illogical as punishing the wrong person,

I believe that's what happens there too.
Assassin wrote:but it's damn close. In my mind, "Counter if you've been hurt at all" is about as odd as "Counter the last entity to hurt you". Meanwhile, "Counter the attacker if this attack hurts you" is so intuitive, so soothingly SANE. :D

And you've just proven why I made the FC 05 bugfix so long ago.
Assassin wrote:a related question: if you hurt Madam, why will she then counter her own reflected spells?? i thought most counterattacks excluded self-damage, so this threw me for a loop.

There should be no way for anyone to counter their own spells unless they're reflected, then I think I've seen that before. I'm not sure how that works.

Also, I tested with L.10 Magic/L.20 Magic before leaving the tower, it was pretty fun casting worthless spells at L.20 Magic making him attack L.10 Magic like a puppet.

Ah, and one more before I forget it; if you Muddle a Controlled monster, they will face the same way as usual while in Muddled status.
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Postby Assassin » Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:45 am

Master ZED wrote:
Assassin wrote:
Master ZED wrote:Here's a new one (needs testing):


i thought you mentioned this to me awhile back..? at any rate, i've seen the behavior (don't remember which monsters; they may've been hacked). iirc, we discussed it with Apparites or something like that.

You must've brought it up, this is brand new to me. Yes, you're gonna have to prove my senality again.


ah, it was me.. i'm offended such a pivotal conversation didn't stay etched in your mind for 10 months. :P check your PM for a link.

Assassin wrote:since we're acknowledging FC 05 is screwy, what about this:

- Character A hits enemy with Cure, no counter.
- Character A hits enemy with Fire, counter.
- Character A hits enemy with Cure; now there's a counter.

It's not quite as illogical as punishing the wrong person,

I believe that's what happens there too.


right.

Assassin wrote:but it's damn close. In my mind, "Counter if you've been hurt at all" is about as odd as "Counter the last entity to hurt you". Meanwhile, "Counter the attacker if this attack hurts you" is so intuitive, so soothingly SANE. :D

And you've just proven why I made the FC 05 bugfix so long ago.


then why the hell'd you retract it? :?

and if the issue is "brand new" to you, what prompted you to make the fix in the first place?

seriously, you're painfully close to getting sent to a home. ;) if five of your FF6-hacking proteges come forward, we'll have power of attorney over you.

There should be no way for anyone to counter their own spells unless they're reflected, then I think I've seen that before. I'm not sure how that works.


damn, i'll have to look into it.
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Postby Djibriel » Wed Nov 24, 2004 4:16 am

Silverlance: I explained in my post how characters handle it. On monsters, the thing doesn't seem to be "Set Imp graphic if status is set" but "Set Imp graphic if Imp spell animations successfully completed" Under normal circumstances that's the same thing (a miss will apparantly follow a different animation), but there are two moments where they are different, and both of them are in the next B & G Guide:

Vanish + Imp sets the Imp graphic, yet not the status, on an Imp-protected monster.

Vanish + enemy Runic. Runic displays the entire graphic even when the normal spell would never be able to do that.

On a related note, I'm pretty sure that whatever happens with X-Zone and Imp VS enemy Runic also happens with Vanish; Vanish on runic-characters seems to give them invisibility for a split second before returning them to normal, so Speck will probably dissappear when he absorbs the spell.

assassin: I remembered Pugs on the walk home yesterday :) Here's the thing: set Imp status on a Pugs. He'll continue to take steps in your direction until he uses Cleaver (which becomes an auto-critical Battle). He'll return to his first location, but he'll have lost the Imp graphic while he still has the status. It's not terrible important as you can set the Imp status with Sour Mouth and he'll be in the same position, but it's weird and faulty behavoir.

I guess it's safe to say that Square totally blew the Imp graphic. Muddle and facing the other way is combined in every situation; would it have been that difficult to the something similair with Imp?
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Postby Djibriel » Wed Nov 24, 2004 5:44 am

Here's a new one (needs testing):

FC 05 only strikes the last person to do damage, not the last attacker -


This greatly reminded me about a a certain Retainer x2, Dark Force monster formation. Control a Retainer and use Tradeoff on the other Retainer. It will counter its death with Tradeoff on the Controlled Retainer (like it more or less should). The Controlled Retainer will snap out of the Control due to its death, use Tradeoff on Relm for no apparant reason, and die.

That's FC 12, but it's still fishy.
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Postby Master ZED » Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:03 am

assassin: I made the fix because FC 05's workings seemed wrong. However, I had no idea about the bug I mentioned at the time. I just thought it was silly that it responded to HP/MP damage on the initial hit and THEN acted as an omni-counter. To me, it's got to be one or the other, but I had doubts as to which that no one put to rest. Seeing this bug firsthand in Anthology, however, has finally put my mind at ease that I was right all along.

Which is why I'm glad I never went so far as to alter the description on the Sheet. I only played hypocrite because while I thought I could be wrong, I wasn't convinced either way, so I doubted my fix to anyone who talked to me about it and let the Sheet say otherwise.

I don't think the problem is with me so much as it is your incapability to follow my train of thought, which is irrational, erratic, and prone to frequent derailment. I blame my anime collection for that.

Dji: Vanish/Imp is already in the guide, Runic is the part that isn't out yet.

And I had proven the Muddle thing false not two posts before yours sucka (the wording is vague though, I should have said that if you Muddle a Controlled monster, it will face the same direction as if it were not Muddled, while Muddled).

The Retainer thing is perfectly normal, however; the Controlled Retainer can't counterattack a dead enemy, so it defaults, attacking the party. I guess it attacks Relm since she was the one who made the last offensive action against it (Controlling it). What will be fishy is if FC 12 turns out as manipulable as FC 05, which is my next target since you brought it up.

EDIT: Got another instance of the aiming bug seen in L.70 Magic x2/L.50 Magic, this time with Retainer x2/Dark Force in a Side Attack. The right-hand Retainer becomes difficult to manually target as you must have the cursor on the first character to get the cursor to point at him. If you can't do that (say, controlling someone and trying to single target Battle), you can't target him.

These things are just jumping out at me now....
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Postby Djibriel » Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:42 am

Dji: Vanish/Imp is already in the guide, Runic is the part that isn't out yet.

Shucks, and I made an effort into writing it down in such a way it couldn't get confusing...I knew about Vanish/Imp in the current versions, but thought to wrap it up by saying that both versions will be in the NEXT version. So unless you're planning on removing the Vanish/Imp bug from the next version, you ain't got nuttin' on me :P

And I had proven the Muddle thing false not two posts before yours sucka (the wording is vague though, I should have said that if you Muddle a Controlled monster, it will face the same direction as if it were not Muddled, while Muddled).

Yeah, I should've been more careful. What I meant is that the vertical sprite flip isn't dependant on the spell animation in any way, unlike Imp and Vanish.

Out of curiosity, is Imp/Pugs going to make the Guide?
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Postby Master ZED » Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:45 am

Djibriel wrote:Out of curiosity, is Imp/Pugs going to make the Guide?

Yep. It would be foolish of me not to list it when the Imp graphic already has a listing. I can't guarantee a seperate listing from Vanish/Imp (I have to test it first and evaluate it myself), but it will be in there.
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Postby Assassin » Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:07 pm

As usual, I got sidetracked. :)

I hacked Crawler to continually cast Bolt, and to counter the Lightning elemental with Drain (no F0 command; just Drain). I tested against him with a party of 4 Wall Ring wearers.. and I noticed when a lone Crawler uses spread Bolt, the fugger *always* directed his counter at character #1.

[EDIT: Goodbye, 3 paragraphs of bullshit! It turns out FC 04 uses $3290 rather than $32E0 to determine the "attacker".. Unlike the latter, the former is rewritten every time the function is called (instead of randomly for each attacker/reflector), so character #1 is the last attacker saved. Ignore my "Randomosity" conspiracy theory.

Square really seems to be defeating the purpose of using $32E0 in the first place.. Why in blazes would you always want to single out a reflector with the lowest target #?

$32E0 , $3290, $32A5 (which is apparently identical to $3290), etc, etc. Then there's $32A4 and $3291, which are only updated some of the time. All this crap is making my head spin.]

---------------------------------

So what's this have to do with the topic? :D

For starters, the mere existence of C2/361B convinces me the game intends to treat reflectors as "attackers" in some respects. (I was iffy on whether this was by design, since you never know with Square..) When else would you have to randomly choose between multiple attackers on a single target? Conventional attacks can't do that, and Launcher and Super Ball just have a single user as the "reflector" for all their projectiles.

Now the FC 05 tie-in?

That brilliant command *won't* counter the reflector (e.g. for single-target spells). It'll just counter the last party member to do damage on their own, as ZED already pointed out.

Why?

FC 05 uses $327C,Y to determine who to counter. But the "do damage function" (C2/12F5) sets that variable to the initial caster, and only when initial caster =/= entity being damaged. Ergo, a monster reflecting a spell onto itself deviates on two counts.

--------------------------------

Also, because C2/12F5 isn't called for non-damage and it won't muck with the variable for healing, we see the oddities with Cure and Dispel.

ZED: Did your patch mess with the FC 05 function, C2/12F5, or both? Time to bring that puppy out of retirement. And well said on my incapability. :D
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Postby Assassin » Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:59 am

gar.. here's more FC bugs, arguably:

FC 03 (Counter Item) and FC 02 (Counter Spell) don't have some of their needed data cleared.

FC 03 Example - Create a monster who counters Potion.. Use Potion on it.. After it counters that, it will also counter any other attacks (Fight, spells, etc). It stays stuck like this until you use another item on it (e.g. Tonic). Because of how infrequently this command is used and the nature of the monsters with the counter, it shouldn't cause any problems in the real game, however inflexible it may be.

FC 02 Example - Once again, most uses of the command are fine. That crackhead FlameEater can't even be *hit* by Demi or Quartr, so who the hell knows why it counters them.

Anyway, one monster i must take issue with is living SrBehemoth. It counters the Flare and Pearl spells with Meteo. But it will also do the same counter should you hit it after that (with Fight/Jump/Steal/non-Magic items / etc). Fortunately, most attacks in the game are treated as spells for this purpose (including Blitz and SwdTech), so they'll overwrite Pearl/Flare in the variable.

I'm interested in any response, even from fools who think it's not a bug. ;P
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Postby Imzogelmo » Thu Nov 25, 2004 6:13 pm

I don't see where the most recent attack's particulars (meaning the spell, command, element, or item most recently used) are ever cleared (they are updated each attack at C2/35E3).

It would seem that a better description would be:
"Counter everything if most recent use of (Item, for instance) was <item>"

Do they ever clear that array? I don't know either way; I'm just pointing out the obvious.
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Postby Master ZED » Thu Nov 25, 2004 8:17 pm

Comments later, new bug, this time for the Fanatic's Tower doors. When you open the doors, the upper half is transparent, so you see through the tower to the clouds flying behind it. It looks like you can walk right through to the other side of the tower even though that's not the case.

Only tested with the first two doors.

EDIT: Make that TWO bugs. The Air Anchor door glitches if you open it, then enter battle or the subscreen without going through the door or otherwise leaving. Think of the rich man's basement in South Figaro.

Speaking of which, the Air Anchor door is also opened via event. Can anyone recall offhand how many doors are made available through events that are otherwise blocked off by something? This bug may have to do with all of them.

EDIT 2: Found two of these doors in Owzer's basement, both gave me the bug, so the South Figaro basement door bug will get a revamp for the new version.

EDIT 3: Let's go ahead and make it two bugs again. This one is PS2 only:

Fast loading can cause an idle game to stop loading -

There are two options you can use to improve games on the PS2: Texture Smoothing and Fast Loading. Fast Loading is self-explanitory and can help a little with the massive load times found in Anthology, however, it can also cause the game to freeze if it becomes idle for a few minutes or more. This freeze results from Fast Loading causing a glitch in which the game, after being idle, won't load from the CD. This can be cured, however, by hitting Eject. The disc won't be ejected, but the system will wake up and begin loading again, ending the freeze so that normal play can resume.
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Postby Imzogelmo » Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:14 pm

Master ZED wrote:This freeze results from Fast Loading causing a glitch in which the game, after being idle, won't load from the CD. This can be cured, however, by hitting Eject. The disc won't be ejected, but the system will wake up and begin loading again, ending the freeze so that normal play can resume.


Makes me glad that I don't play Anthology. :)
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Postby Assassin » Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:43 pm

Imzogelmo wrote:I don't see where the most recent attack's particulars (meaning the spell, command, element, or item most recently used) are ever cleared (they are updated each attack at C2/35E3).

It would seem that a better description would be:
"Counter everything if most recent use of (Item, for instance) was <item>"

Do they ever clear that array? I don't know either way; I'm just pointing out the obvious.


the only place i know of is C2/23ED, which clears a whole ton of stuff at battle start.

because C2/35E3 overwrites the command every time, i don't think FC 01 will suffer from a bug.

and what are your thoughts on changing "TXA / STA $3290,Y" into "LDA $32E0,Y / AND #$7F / ASL / STA $3290,Y"? Square goes through all that work of setting $32E0, then uses it for like two friggin things. I see no good reason why the topmost reflector should be singled out.. Unless there's another case of multiple attackers on a single target?

We've both seen amusing communication breakdowns between whoever wrote C2 and the C3/C1/etc author, but I swear two different people must have been responsible for C2/35E3 and C2/361B. ;)

also, i'm baffled as to why the hell Square cuts A in half before saving it in $32E0. then every command that reads it has to multiply it by two. where's a smug laughter smiley? :P
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Postby Master ZED » Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:30 pm

Imzogelmo wrote:
Master ZED wrote:This freeze results from Fast Loading causing a glitch in which the game, after being idle, won't load from the CD. This can be cured, however, by hitting Eject. The disc won't be ejected, but the system will wake up and begin loading again, ending the freeze so that normal play can resume.


Makes me glad that I don't play Anthology. :)


You should have quoted the immense load times part. Fast Loading is optional, something you have to tell the system to use every time you turn it on. If you don't bother, it won't come on and the game won't glitch.

On a side note, the Fast Loading thing is a true glitch since FL is an outside force (sans FL, there's no idle freezing bug present, and the game's original Japanese and English versions predate the PS2 so it's highly unlikely this cashcow exploiting game was tested on the new system). That means my guide's title will finally ring true. Of course, for European and Greatest Hits, they really should have known better. :)

I've got two more, but they're minor sound bugs with Fire 3 and Merton, I won't be listing them. Anywho, Fire 3 sometimes seems to forget the noise engine part of FF6's sound system resulting in an odd sound accompanying the actual sound effect randomly, and Merton sometimes won't shut up until a couple seconds after casting (usually when another sound effect is played). Eh, like I said, not worthy of listing.
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Postby Assassin » Fri Nov 26, 2004 1:34 am

ZED: since you're including graphical hiccups, might as well enlighten readers about that Damn Yellow Streak on Gogo's command list. :)

and can you respond to this?

ZED: Did your patch mess with the FC 05 function, C2/12F5, or both? Time to bring that puppy out of retirement.
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Postby Master ZED » Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:32 am

I messed with wherever the FC command pointer table led to. Specifically, there were two copies of a piece of code in that section, and the second copy was only used by FC 05. I can't remember the addresses, but that's what I ended up overwriting since the first copy was in reach of either a jump or a branch (I want to say branch).

If you can't find it, I'll look it up later. You should be able to spot it based on code optimization instinct alone since even I thought they were wasting space when I saw it. :D

Oh, and the South Figaro hiccup was already in the guide, I'm not listing anything new, but I'll do that one anyway since you can't use Gogo effectively without seeing it and wondering what the hell it is.
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Postby Assassin » Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:53 am

ah.. i see the optimization right away, but i can't deduce how you fixed the bug.

what i'm thinking of now is to null $327C,Y before/after every turn, though it doesn't sound like you did that.

i'm definitely interested in you unearthing the old fix. :)
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